Ive supported Hastings since I was a young boy in the 1980s and have moved back to the town very recently and was wondering whats going on?
WHAT IS GOING ON? Surely we're not broke from the cup run? Cant we "buy" our way out of this mess? How did we get in this mess?
Although Ive been following results from afar (not easy where Ive been) I dont understand how 2 years on from a once in a lifetime cup run we're in this mess.
I can see everyone is upset at the moment so please understand this is a genuine request for some information and an understanding of how this has happened.
The position that the club finds itself is, in the opinion of many, down to the a number of factors, which include a constant change of managers, an extraordinary turnover of players, a lack of any realistic planning, a total failure to take advantage of the Cup run, the development of a poor reputation both locally and within the football community, lack of communication and engagement, a complete failure to listen to feedback, a disrespect of loyal supporters, a simply dreadful standard of football, and an apparent lack of investment in proper facilities. League tables don't lie and are an embarrassment to a club with a proud history. Plenty of people on here draw their own conclusions. My conclusion is that all the above, if true, has happened under the current Chairman and owner, and there is a view that unless something drastic changes, the club will cease to exist, such is the extent of the downward spiral. At the moment, we appear to have two factions - the for and against Mr Walters. This is incredibly divisive but such is the gap between the 2, it seems hard to bridge. The current league position and dreadful performances of the first team have apparently accelerated the call for change, with supporters saying they won't watch away games, even some home games, with others leaving matches before the end. In the end, everybody has to decide whether they want to see more of the same, or a drastic change of approach. You don't need to study this forum too closely to see who is in which camp.
Along with those two factions, I think there is another who care far more about where we are in the league and how we play than who owns or runs the club if it's possible to separate those factors. The managerial changes haven't helped at all but I think only maggs was sacked? (A mistake in my opinion) terry resigned as did dom although he might cite an element of constructive dismissal regarding training arrangements. Dom's reign was a real disappointment, I think the appointment was almost universally welcomed but frankly with the exception of pullen, none of the players he brought to the club were good enough and he let 2 good players in Dolan and king go. After he left we had to rebuild the squad again and that hasn't been successful either. Perhaps mine is a simplistic view but I feel that is why we are at the lowest ebb on the pitch in the 35 years I've been coming to the pilot field.
A football club has to be run along business lines if not structurally as a business itself and based on that principal then yes the Chairman is the pinnacle of responsibility whether or not the reasons for the decline are solely down to him or not. The part isn't really debatable its just a fact. What is however is the question of can the club present a answer to the problems that face us and how it stakes up against known alternatives.
Certainly there are obvious reasons to be extremely worried right now and the lack of attacking options right now for example is as bad as it has ever been and seemingly getting worse daily.
The one thing that i just really really cannot get over though is why alternative groups have not presented themselves publicly?
That way they allow the fans to see the alternative vision but currently there is a huge vacuum and the 'Grass is greener on the other side argument' is much less convincing without giving people at least a view or description of the other field!
I really just dont understand why they don't? there's a huge open goal waiting for someone with all the current pessimism around the club ( Justified right now by the situation ) but there appears to be even less attacking options on the bidding PR front than we have?! It just sows seeds of doubt that the alternative is financially incapable of either purchasing the club initially in the first place otherwise why wouldn't you give the fans the alternative option to get behind?
If there's no live bid in anyway then confidentially cant be an issue?
This is a genuine question that Dave68 asked the other day as well and got no reply?
Does anyone know the answer?
-- Edited by Dan on Monday 23rd of March 2015 10:22:42 AM
It's the same old situation Dan, certain people come on here and Indeed on the other forum claiming that there's buyers waiting to pounce like a stalking Tiger, yet when they are asked to clarify things nothing is forthcoming.
Cracking post General, I can add another couple of years to your 35, and have seen nothing like this before, call me old fashioned, but there is something to be said for having, no forums, no internal information, no knowledge of how to run a football club. Those days were simpler and fans were happier.
Before you all start on me, I am not saying ignorance is bliss, just sometimes a little easier to cope with.
I would agree with you again, General.
I would certainly say I am in a somewhat bemused state somewhere in the middle ground on the issue of the Chairman. I certainly dont blame him for all our problems this season. Most of the managerial appointments have been reasonably well received by a good proportion of supporters, but obviously not by everyone. (I was always more doubtful than most about Dom's appointment !) Also money has been made available, certainly at the outset.
As I have said before, we clearly lost our nerve far too early and, while the team that started the season may not have been quite as strong as we hoped, it certainly would not have been in a relegation battle now.
However there's no smoke without fire and there does seem to have been a discontent running through the club the entire season. Where has that come from ? Terry seemed to have assembled a strong squad but something didn't click and he departed with us already in trouble. Dom started with a convincing win and everything briefly appeared rosy again. However you can't achieve success in this league simply by importing County players. When Dom left shortly after the debacle at Hythe there were further darker rumblings and again DW's involvement was alluded to as part of the problem. Sadly, NK's appointment has seen the final disintegration of a respectable side. Players have left, poorer players have joined. Most of the squad there now have no loyalty to the badge and barely know each other. People are questioning signings, team selection, commitment, tactics, substitutions, motivation...in fact just about every aspect of running a successful team. Unsurprisingly recent performances have been woeful.
Despite all the rumblings, how much of this is actually DW's fault I honestly don't know. If it is really true that the sort of manager we need at the club simply won't come BECAUSE of him then that's a very serious situation. Clearly SOMETHING has to change though because we're are now at rock bottom..... and I can point at 50 years of supporting the club to say that. One thing is absolutely clear....it's certainly not the fans' fault who have kept turning up and kept supporting or the volunteer's fault who are doing it for their love of their CLUB. Two ridiculous suggestions !
Somehow (God knows how !) we MUST stay up. We MUST appoint the right manager as early as possible and give him time and money to assemble the players we need to build a team around Josh, Razor and Sam. Whether this happes with DW in charge or not I don't really care.
I would agree with you again, General. I would certainly say I am in a somewhat bemused state somewhere in the middle ground on the issue of the Chairman. I certainly dont blame him for all our problems this season. Most of the managerial appointments have been reasonably well received by a good proportion of supporters, but obviously not by everyone. (I was always more doubtful than most about Dom's appointment !) Also money has been made available, certainly at the outset. As I have said before, we clearly lost our nerve far too early and, while the team that started the season may not have been quite as strong as we hoped, it certainly would not have been in a relegation battle now. However there's no smoke without fire and there does seem to have been a discontent running through the club the entire season. Where has that come from ? Terry seemed to have assembled a strong squad but something didn't click and he departed with us already in trouble. Dom started with a convincing win and everything briefly appeared rosy again. However you can't achieve success in this league simply by importing County players. When Dom left shortly after the debacle at Hythe there were further darker rumblings and again DW's involvement was alluded to as part of the problem. Sadly, NK's appointment has seen the final disintegration of a respectable side. Players have left, poorer players have joined. Most of the squad there now have no loyalty to the badge and barely know each other. People are questioning signings, team selection, commitment, tactics, substitutions, motivation...in fact just about every aspect of running a successful team. Unsurprisingly recent performances have been woeful.
Despite all the rumblings, how much of this is actually DW's fault I honestly don't know. If it is really true that the sort of manager we need at the club simply won't come BECAUSE of him then that's a very serious situation. Clearly SOMETHING has to change though because we're are now at rock bottom..... and I can point at 50 years of supporting the club to say that. One thing is absolutely clear....it's certainly not the fans' fault who have kept turning up and kept supporting or the volunteer's fault who are doing it for their love of their CLUB. Two ridiculous suggestions !
Somehow (God knows how !) we MUST stay up. We MUST appoint the right manager as early as possible and give him time and money to assemble the players we need to build a team around Josh, Razor and Sam. Whether this happes with DW in charge or not I don't really care.
Spot on Mick, i agree. We must stay up otherwise we will fall back into the dark ages. DW is to blaim and other will be bring in new life into the club ; what certainty we have all about that ???? Main problem, due to several reasons, we lost a lot of players and those who came instead are simply not good enough. We have to bring in - this week - quality players - and at least 2 attackers - who can score goals. If we don't score we will certainly go down. We know there is money available , relegation will cost us somuch more.
Mick -as I wrote about Dom's appointment being almost universally popular, I remembered your reservations and concerns about what might happen if it didn't work out. Sadly those reservations proved to be spot on and I agree with the rest of your assessment of the situation we currently find ourselves in.
Fingers have regularly been pointed at DW and NK but I honestly think the rot really started to set in in DD's reign. What were we all saying on here when he first arrived ? We need to give him TIME ! But Dom didn't take his time, did he ? He didn't give himself any time to assess the attributes of all the existing players. Instead he mass imported his favourites from EP and a few other county sides, many of whom were not good enough and none of whom had any allegiance to the club. Decent players drifted away and, I think we can guess, the changing room was a divided place and, with just a couple of exceptions, results remained pretty poor. When Dom left, all his mates followed, some more quickly than others, but I think EVERYONE Dom brought in has now departed. (Even Charlie Farmer who wanted to spend time with his family but has played regularly for Redhill since. Says it all !) So the management team were left to try to rebuild a squad now considerably weaker than the one Terry left us. And trying to turn round the fortunes of a losing team made up of strangers has been a task that no-one would envy and one that has proved well beyond Nigel and co. So I blame Nigel a lot less than some others (certainly less than John !). This has been going wrong for six months. Let's be honest, we never managed to replace Sawyer, Dolan and King, let alone actually be in a position to strengthen the squad that Terry had.
As always Mick, I respect your views but guess what? I disagree and speaking to many supporters this week of all ages and reading many of the posts since the game I would guess a lot of others may disagree as well. Not sure how you can defend NK in anyway and there is no comparison between his and Dom's records both on the pitch and the signings made. They were not spectacular, and I take on board the Dolan, King comment (think Sawyer left just before) but give me Keehan, Pullen and Shelley any day over all of his signings, Jack Mclean excluded. He's had 13 games and nearly 3 months to sort things out and apart from a couple of gutsy defeats at Guernsey and Merstham the performances have been as bad as anything I have witnessed in nearly 30 years of support. For me Stapley showed more in one game against Burgess Hill and got more reaction from the players than he has in 13 games. Let's just look at the past month. No wins, no goals, county league signings, players turning up at 2.30 on match day, only 2 players warming up at 2.30 whilst the entire Horsham team are out, players out in dribs and drabs after half time whilst Horsham come out as a team with the manager to warm up, no thanks or acknowledgement of supporters who sung their heart out for 90 mins, ridiculous comments in the papers such as "we are playing better" " we are getting fitter" " we had 9 players missing", youngsters being thrown into a relegation battle when it is clear to all they are not ready, players playing out of position, players choosing stag do's over playing, fans walking out after 75 minutes, respected supporters claiming to no longer wanting to support the team away from home and now even at home, Jordan Woodley not picked, not fit enough admittedly but still better than most of what we have and there is more but will keep these to myself. So yes, I do point the finger at Nigel, who else do you blame? Certain players also have to take responsibility but I'm a manager at a work. If my team don't perform, if they don't produce results, if they turn up late for work, if I employ poor quality staff, if I give youngsters jobs that they are not capable of carrying out, if I do not train them properly, if I do not give them proper directions, if I make poor management decisions, if I do not treat my customers (fans) with respect, you know what......I would be sacked. The fact is Mick it appears he is going no where and if he can somehow get us out of this I will be the first to congratulate him on this forum. I don't want him to fail, I don't dislike him as I don't know him, everyone says he's a really decent and knowledgeable bloke, but in most peoples minds he is very very fortunate to still be employed, just ask a certain Mr Maggs.
-- Edited by johnw on Monday 23rd of March 2015 10:00:50 PM
There has been a lot of panic and ranting about our end of season fixtures but has any thought being given to next season. We obviously don't know what league we will be playing in but whether it is Ryman South or the new County league it will not be easy. If we avoid relegation it is no good thinking we will have a chance of a play-off place with the present set-up of manager and players. If we are in the County League it will also be difficult. Although Dorking (Archibald and all ) will probably be in the Ryman there will be whoever gets relegated plus Littlehampton, Pagham, both Eastbourne teams as well as the progressive Loxwood and also Chichester City (now managed by Darren Pearce). We will need whoever is going to be in charge by the end of April to have a chance of recruiting new players and agreeing terms. If we are in the County league gates will be down as we will not be seeing many visiting fans. The plus side of income is that as we will be playing more local opponents we may be able to pick up extra advertising revenue.
Mick and john both present well argued but fairly conflicting theories as to what has led to our current dire situation. It's hard to say where one is right and the other wrong. I suppose it just shows how complex and interlinked some of the events have been. What's the way forward from here? That question will probably mean back to square one with lots theories that we've seen discussed on here countless times before. Personally, I haven't got a clue what the answer is, just hope someone finds it soon
Please don't think that I believe Nigel has done a good or even half decent job. NK has failed terribly. John and I certainly agree on that. My point is that the ship was already half submerged and sinking fast when he took the helm. Continuing the same totally inappropriate theme, we needed people capable of bailing us out....instead Nigel took on more ballast.
Here's my plan. Change of ownership,management and a clean sweep. Go on the biggest relaunch, rebrand and reinvigoration programme ever seen. Involve supporters in the running of the club. Reengage with the council, local employers, schools, colleges, with a new vision and plan for the future. Poke a 2 year contract through Dean White's door, set up camp outside his house and don't leave until he signs it. Give him a budget for the entire season that will not change. Allow him to bring in his own backroom team and players. Tell supporters we'll have the same manager for 2 years come what may. Set modest achievable targets and tell everybody what they are. Live within our means. Ban any sense of BillyBigTime arrogance. Tidy up the PF, keep the fantastic playing surface, and engage with volunteers to make them feel valued. Make the PF a happy place again. Communicate with supporters along the way, even when times get tough - their opinions matter. Overall, start afresh with a positive, can-do approach. It's not all about money. It's about attitude. Forget the last 2 years, put them to bed and MOVE FORWARD TOGETHER!!!!! We can and will bounce back but we have to be brave and fearless to do it.
And where do you expect all this cash is coming from Overthehill? You say tidy up The Pilot Field I can tell you that place costs a fortune to upkeep already, the stand would cost more to demolish than it would to rebuild a new one so I suspect that living within our means as you quoted would put a hefty dent in your plan straight away. I have been to a lot of grounds and I can say without being biased that The Pilot Field despite its age is one of the better grounds in this league. Peacehaven last season was laughable, their attempt at a tunnel was a shower curtain!!! Sittingbournes ground is infested with flies and you're forever.getting bitten. Redhill is of a similar state too.
Only last season The Pilot Field was graded to Conference South standard so there can't be that much wrong with it.
Only last week I was talking to someone who was involved with the running of Stamco at the firs and we spoke about the council, he told me that they had the same lack of input from the council that we have. The fact is this council want nothing to do with promoting football within this town, so I think that plan may fall at the first hurdle.
Regarding the budget, anyone with a bit of business sense would realise that paying the amount of money we were paying when clearly we wasn't going to win the league was stupidity. The budget was cut ,that is now common knowledge but it wasn't cut as drastically as a lot of people have said it was, in fact it has made me laugh at some of the amounts I've read. I agree that we should be prepared to spend more for players given our current league position though. I've not spoken to anyone lately about the current budget giving the natural recoup of money from players leaving, however I would still say it must be above what a lot of teams are paying considering some clubs claim they don't pay players.
Managers currently bring in back room staff and players they want so that would be nothing new. When Dom was appointed we honestly thought that we had a manager for the foreseeable future, we could of said he's here for the next two seasons come what may but he decided to walk he wasn't sacked, in my opinion it's a bold statement to claim.
Tell you what then, Lenny - leave everything as it is, 'cos clearly nothing needs to change. In fact, let's not even try. The council won't change. The PF's better than Peacehaven. We can't encourage a manager to stay for more than 5 minutes. It was Dom's fault he walked. It's OK, we've appointed Nigel. Budget cuts are OK. No, nothing's wrong. As conquest says to me, "Good luck". Wake up and look at the league tables, the comments on here from loyal supporters, and what's happened in the last 2 years. Forget change, we don't need it, let's just carry on regardless.
come on the volunteers are starting to bitch for Christ sake this is their club everyone calm down and support the club the players the management and more importantly the volunteers, we all know where the club is constructed from
Hang about all I was saying was that some of what you have said is flawed, don't think for one minute that I am happy with the way things are. You come to one game this season that I know of and literally sit there from miles away criticising this that and everything else. No one wanted this season to turn out like it has but it has. Any people I have spoken to have agreed that to cut the budget when it was cut was the right thing to do, as I stated I believe we should be increasing that again giving our league position. Do not for one minute think that I believe we have nothing to worry about, a lot of my friends on here will tell you that!
Just because I don't come on here publically claiming this and that should be changed doesnt mean I don't have an opinion And doesn't mean I believe things are all fine and dandy, because I'm involved within the club I personally don't think it's professional that I air my views in public.
to be fair overthe hill has some good ideas but to say get council on side is liveing in cloud cuckooland. my nephew played up at firs 2 weeks ago and it is not right that our kids in play in surrounding like that and what can the council do for club anyway council is badly run and has no money so dont see they help a football club in any way.
heard dean white applyed before for job as manager but he wanted a full time salarry to replace the scout job he did forhull was it? so living in means and that dont go together. agree with lenny on our ground though one of best in league even though it is old
You are right about the council not wanting to help the club, or any football club for that. Not even the youth teams. Here at Hastings United we have a youth section with 15 teams from under 7 to under 18, (not including the Ryman U18s or 21s which come under the umbrella of the snr club), these youth teams play on a Sat or Sun on council pitches for which combined, the cost to the youth set up in excess of £3500 per year, not to mention upto £60 ph for the hire of training pitches when the nights draw in early. So if the council wont help the kids of the town, what chance has the Snr club got ?
And before anyone starts saying "its all because of DW !!" it is the same with all local clubs ... be it Hastings Town, Hastings Rangers, Hastings Gunners, Spartans, ect, ect.
Valid points well-made, Lenny. A couple of things I would argue about - I don't see why I can't support the club and have an opinion, even though I live a long way away. It's not just me who criticises and wants improvement. We just have different views on how this might be improved. I put forward a few possibilities that piece by piece are taken to bits. Fair enough, that's life, and I've never stated that I'm right. We have to do something different. As to your personal involvement in the club, I agree that puts you in a tricky position. That said, I do not think it is particularly helpful to dismiss ideas out of hand, without expressing your views on how things should change. I haven't seen the slightest shred of evidence that the club has a Plan B, or indeed a Plan C to get us out of this mess.
Overthehill's post is still really what any genuine alternative ownership groups should be outlining publicly with their workings and thought out arguments to try to win over the fans, now I can only assume that he is not directly connected to a viable bid ( I may be incorrect ) but it's the closest there's been to an alternative view even if the points may not be workable.
As I & others have said there is actually still no publicly known alternative canvassing the fans and that's strange
I think there are more useful posts in this thread about our club's fundamental problems than I've seen before. Unsurprisingly, there are differences of view.
I think though we are all likely able to agree about some things: A town of our size and nature ought to be able to support a club of at least Conference South standard; against that benchmark we have underachieved for decades; even against the modest standard of our recent history, our present league position and current playing standard is unacceptably poor; we have had a succession of managerial changes and playing staff that has been disastrous; Pilot Field facilities are ageing and require significant improvement (or we re-locate); and we do not have the positive involvement of the council and the wider community that we would like.
The much more difficult question is how these things can be changed for the better. For some there appears to be one simple answer - change the current ownership of the club. I have argued against that view for various reasons. The primary one is that it simply is not within the power of ordinary supporters to effect that change. The club is not a democracy; it is a limited liability company. Those who own or control the majority of shares control the club. Unless the club becomes insolvent, it is entirely down to those shareholders if and when they decided to sell. So no amount of huffing and puffing on this forum will of itself bring about a change of ownership. Yes, some might argue that supporters should protest loud and long and that that might finally bring about an 'I've had enough' response from the Board. It might, but the trouble with such action is that it can easily escalate when it doesn't bring an early result into actions that are harmful to the club. Anything that gets anywhere near suggesting that supporters should boycott games, asking volunteers to withdraw their services, advising players not to join, etc, is dangerous in the extreme and wrong.
Also, there seems to be a view among some that any change of ownership must necessarily be for the better. I certainly do not share that view. Bad as things are, worse though they might become if we are relegated, there is always the possibility that change will bring about a far worse situation.
Dan has pointed out (more than once in this thread) that as things stand there are no potential new owners who have publicly declared an interest. Unless and until anyone does supporters will have no idea about the credibility of any such individual or group. Beware! there are always those hovering around the fringes of football clubs at all levels who talk a good talk but who have limited funds and perhaps even less expertise and integrity who might seek to exploit for their own ends the difficulties of a failing club.
Let me ask the question: Why on earth should anyone with funds and expertise want to make the present owners a realistic offer? Love of the club and of our town? Maybe. But not, I would suggest with any hope of making a profit anytime soon!
So for me, the only present answer I have is one which is unsatisfactory and easily derided: to support the club and its present owners and management while making constructive suggestions and inviting them to explain their actions, to express disapproval when appropriate within the bounds of reason and courtesy, and to hope that better times will eventually come.
